I'm convinced that the present urge to take Britain back into the EU has nothing to do with economics. It is entirely political. The economic argument is a red herring which I'm sure they know. It is interesting to watch the arguments about Canada getting associate membership of the EU. That is all political and has nothing to do with economics.
It’s hard to make a compelling economic case for jumping back into a boat that’s visibly bailing out water itself! Pragmatic trade links, absolutely ideological nostalgia, not so much.
Although it’s impossible now to tell, had we stayed in the EU then, it’s our UK businesses that would have been better off which may in turn have had a better financial result on our economy as a whole. But you are correct it is also political.
I was dead against leaving. I could see it was a political decision, although I also believed then that leaving was because they just didn’t want to pay any more money into the EU. They were running out of money and wanted to use the money! I still think we should have remained.
But now we have left then, I see no real benefit rejoining. But I do see benefit in a trade agreement and free passage of goods as it all should have been. Before going deeper especially after Maastricht.
Now we are out we can take real advantage of that situation. Not so much with new trade deals but by controlling our own currency!
To make it flow.
The reason why we have been in a recession (I feel we have been despite the figures) since 1974 oil crisis is the same then as now. Cash flow.
And it should be obvious to everyone.
Too much of our money, our sovereign currency is sidelined! Not in the game. It’s on the bench being unplayed. It’s idle unused and prevented from playing despite the government being on the field of play! Despite also being referee and more importantly they also manage both teams and write the rules of the game!
Yes governments have skin in this game.
They must benefit from the economy by receiving taxes. From the powerhouse that is West Ham United!!!…. No sorry I got carried away with the football analogy, the powerhouse that is our economy.
But to get sufficient tax take to do the job they allow vast sums of our money to be sidelined and missing in action, with money sitting idle unspent and unused in Bank accounts here and abroad and elsewhere.
That’s like building Britain with one arm and one leg hog tied behind their backs!
Money makes the passage of money by SPENDING. If it isn’t SPENT then no one else gets it to reward their work efforts and no taxes are triggered.
Spending is the act that fulfills both. It passes on money to the next citizen in line and it triggers taxes. Yes SPENDING alone triggers tax take. Not work effort. No amount of work effort can be sustained without money being SPENT by someone else, that someone has to be holding it to SPEND it. It’s the Patrons and customers and consumers of those businesses that have had to SPEND their earnings rewarded to ensure everyone else gets their money!
We know SPENDING money triggers ALL taxation because NOT SPENDING triggers NO TAX!!!! NONE WHATSOEVER!
Nor does it contribute to everyone else getting money either! It passes on nothing.
So we have had for decades now a lack of sufficient money being SPENT that hitherto has been unspent! The money sitting idle has caused the rest of us in the economy to be devoid of it! We can’t give our government sufficient tax from a small pot. We need ALL money moving in perpetual flow. Then and only then can we have an economy that reaches it optimum not its minimum.
We can only get paid if others first spend! Thats a fact!! So when we have so much money withheld from that much needed flow and when SPENDING triggers all taxes it should be glaringly obvious that we need more money moving by bring SPENT than now!
There is obviously an economic dimension to the argument about returning to the EU but my point was that the people who are arguing that we should rejoin are doing so for purely political reasons not for economic reasons. When they say we would be better off back in they don't give any details. It's worth remembering that in the run up to the referendum we were told that it would be catastrophic for the British economy but that hasn't happened at all. It's not good but neither are the economies of France and Germany. This government says it wants to re-industrialise Britain but Germany, the power house of Europe's industry, is rapidly de-industrialising. Both France and Germany have said that they can no longer afford their welfare bill. The EU's energy policy has been disastrous for Europe. What's the point of rejoining a failing EU?
I agree with your point that we should make the most of being out but that should have happened right at the beginning. Being forced to join the Euro really would be having one hand tied behind our back.
This decision will be made for the wrong misleading decisions just as we were taken out!
Incidentally we left with a total number less than half of the possible vote! I didn’t like that. We should have ensured it really was a fair pro vote to leave. And in my view it wasn’t.
They said we are out so we can make the most of it. We can still buy and sell with Europe but it’s difficult. It’s those hurdles we need to try snd negotiate better.
But it’s more in my mind to put right the wrongs that were there before and still there after despite the propaganda.
We are being shafted by those who don’t spend Steve. I’m all for rainy day money but come on! Millions!! And trillions. That’s my angle.
We were up shit creek because of cash glue and we’re still there but deeper!
It’s our economy that’s the real problem and it’s our understanding if it and tax that’s putting us wrong.
We borrow from the very people who withhold it from us. They now have no incentive to spend it because they loan it back instead! So instead of getting freely spent unindebted money we all get indebted money! That we all have to pay for through taxes that are all triggered by spending.
We know that because money unspent triggers no tax.
So they not only keep snd earn from our money they get us to pay them back and extra so they get richer! All from never spending it just loaning it!
We are in desperate need for it freely back. But it’s our intrepid politicians that are so stupid they can’t see it. Or do anything about it.
It’s my mission to try and point there stupidity out.
So the National Care Service will actually be no different to what is currently offered except even rich people will not be charged for a home help to get their breakfast ready. A benefit for the wealthy? People will still get a flying visit from an overworked carer paid for by the state (which is what is on offer now) so what does he need £18bn for? Presumably for the salaries of the quango staff set up to run what is currently run haphazardly by social services.
As for the burning urge of the political class and the liberal elite to return to the sinking ship that is the EU - it baffles me completely.
Spot on regarding the headlines versus reality. Shifting personal care to universal coverage sounds transformative until you realise the hotel bill remains strictly yours.
I guess that explains why pre-Brexit Poles wanted to move to the UK, following the money, but 10 years on they are leaving to go back the their home country, whose standard of living is rising fast whilst Britain stagnates.
I'm convinced that the present urge to take Britain back into the EU has nothing to do with economics. It is entirely political. The economic argument is a red herring which I'm sure they know. It is interesting to watch the arguments about Canada getting associate membership of the EU. That is all political and has nothing to do with economics.
It’s hard to make a compelling economic case for jumping back into a boat that’s visibly bailing out water itself! Pragmatic trade links, absolutely ideological nostalgia, not so much.
Im not sure I completely agree Steve.
Although it’s impossible now to tell, had we stayed in the EU then, it’s our UK businesses that would have been better off which may in turn have had a better financial result on our economy as a whole. But you are correct it is also political.
I was dead against leaving. I could see it was a political decision, although I also believed then that leaving was because they just didn’t want to pay any more money into the EU. They were running out of money and wanted to use the money! I still think we should have remained.
But now we have left then, I see no real benefit rejoining. But I do see benefit in a trade agreement and free passage of goods as it all should have been. Before going deeper especially after Maastricht.
Now we are out we can take real advantage of that situation. Not so much with new trade deals but by controlling our own currency!
To make it flow.
The reason why we have been in a recession (I feel we have been despite the figures) since 1974 oil crisis is the same then as now. Cash flow.
And it should be obvious to everyone.
Too much of our money, our sovereign currency is sidelined! Not in the game. It’s on the bench being unplayed. It’s idle unused and prevented from playing despite the government being on the field of play! Despite also being referee and more importantly they also manage both teams and write the rules of the game!
Yes governments have skin in this game.
They must benefit from the economy by receiving taxes. From the powerhouse that is West Ham United!!!…. No sorry I got carried away with the football analogy, the powerhouse that is our economy.
But to get sufficient tax take to do the job they allow vast sums of our money to be sidelined and missing in action, with money sitting idle unspent and unused in Bank accounts here and abroad and elsewhere.
That’s like building Britain with one arm and one leg hog tied behind their backs!
Money makes the passage of money by SPENDING. If it isn’t SPENT then no one else gets it to reward their work efforts and no taxes are triggered.
Spending is the act that fulfills both. It passes on money to the next citizen in line and it triggers taxes. Yes SPENDING alone triggers tax take. Not work effort. No amount of work effort can be sustained without money being SPENT by someone else, that someone has to be holding it to SPEND it. It’s the Patrons and customers and consumers of those businesses that have had to SPEND their earnings rewarded to ensure everyone else gets their money!
We know SPENDING money triggers ALL taxation because NOT SPENDING triggers NO TAX!!!! NONE WHATSOEVER!
Nor does it contribute to everyone else getting money either! It passes on nothing.
So we have had for decades now a lack of sufficient money being SPENT that hitherto has been unspent! The money sitting idle has caused the rest of us in the economy to be devoid of it! We can’t give our government sufficient tax from a small pot. We need ALL money moving in perpetual flow. Then and only then can we have an economy that reaches it optimum not its minimum.
We can only get paid if others first spend! Thats a fact!! So when we have so much money withheld from that much needed flow and when SPENDING triggers all taxes it should be glaringly obvious that we need more money moving by bring SPENT than now!
There is obviously an economic dimension to the argument about returning to the EU but my point was that the people who are arguing that we should rejoin are doing so for purely political reasons not for economic reasons. When they say we would be better off back in they don't give any details. It's worth remembering that in the run up to the referendum we were told that it would be catastrophic for the British economy but that hasn't happened at all. It's not good but neither are the economies of France and Germany. This government says it wants to re-industrialise Britain but Germany, the power house of Europe's industry, is rapidly de-industrialising. Both France and Germany have said that they can no longer afford their welfare bill. The EU's energy policy has been disastrous for Europe. What's the point of rejoining a failing EU?
I agree with your point that we should make the most of being out but that should have happened right at the beginning. Being forced to join the Euro really would be having one hand tied behind our back.
Yes I like your point Steve.
This decision will be made for the wrong misleading decisions just as we were taken out!
Incidentally we left with a total number less than half of the possible vote! I didn’t like that. We should have ensured it really was a fair pro vote to leave. And in my view it wasn’t.
They said we are out so we can make the most of it. We can still buy and sell with Europe but it’s difficult. It’s those hurdles we need to try snd negotiate better.
But it’s more in my mind to put right the wrongs that were there before and still there after despite the propaganda.
We are being shafted by those who don’t spend Steve. I’m all for rainy day money but come on! Millions!! And trillions. That’s my angle.
We were up shit creek because of cash glue and we’re still there but deeper!
It’s our economy that’s the real problem and it’s our understanding if it and tax that’s putting us wrong.
We borrow from the very people who withhold it from us. They now have no incentive to spend it because they loan it back instead! So instead of getting freely spent unindebted money we all get indebted money! That we all have to pay for through taxes that are all triggered by spending.
We know that because money unspent triggers no tax.
So they not only keep snd earn from our money they get us to pay them back and extra so they get richer! All from never spending it just loaning it!
We are in desperate need for it freely back. But it’s our intrepid politicians that are so stupid they can’t see it. Or do anything about it.
It’s my mission to try and point there stupidity out.
So the National Care Service will actually be no different to what is currently offered except even rich people will not be charged for a home help to get their breakfast ready. A benefit for the wealthy? People will still get a flying visit from an overworked carer paid for by the state (which is what is on offer now) so what does he need £18bn for? Presumably for the salaries of the quango staff set up to run what is currently run haphazardly by social services.
As for the burning urge of the political class and the liberal elite to return to the sinking ship that is the EU - it baffles me completely.
Spot on regarding the headlines versus reality. Shifting personal care to universal coverage sounds transformative until you realise the hotel bill remains strictly yours.
I guess that explains why pre-Brexit Poles wanted to move to the UK, following the money, but 10 years on they are leaving to go back the their home country, whose standard of living is rising fast whilst Britain stagnates.